Hardware and Skills

[Fermat]

I'm rephrasing this question this because I saw a recent post somewhere saying that my method was incorrect (not personally, but just someone else's issue), so I thought I'd run my thoughts by the forums.

This is considering Hardware characters. I will just be using one skill to demonstrate the problem.
Let's talk about a Hardware: Mechanical genius with a PhD working on his car, therefore using Mechanics: Automotive. What is his skill?
My method: Base (25) + Education (30) + HW Bonus (25) = 65%

Option 2: RAW
Base (25) + HW Bonus (25) = 50%

Option 3: Higher value
Base (25) + Education (30) = 55%

Now here is my reasoning.
First, there is style. Hardware characters are meant to be exceptional in their field, its what makes them 'heroes', they shouldn't have the exact same bonuses as everyone else who took the same classes. I find it a tad jarring that a superhero whose life depends on his equipment has the same benefit as my local repair guy. Only the Hardware: Weapons class really escapes that trap with their combat bonuses.

Second, is more mechanical. Without that boost, their special benefit, the ability to go beyond 98% is largely a non-starter. They are functionally the same as anyone else with the skill, until they breach that 98%. The catch is that for many skills, this difference won't exist till level 10ish. I've even considered letting it apply to their Specialty skills (Hot wiring etc.). By letting the education bonus apply, this at least lets them see some benefit earlier. This really is the biggest issue for me, even their example of the benefit doesn't make sense. The example has a character with a Computer Hacking of 135%, assuming an IQ of 30, the character would have to be level 37 to achieve this (82 + 16 + 37).

I've considered other ways of correcting this: increasing the amount of skills improve per level and giving the player a few extra percentage points to spend wherever they want every level. However, I'm curious how other's have addressed this.

[say652]

80% from the start, where did the-15% penalty come from?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The level up skills bonuses are with each additional level gained

And it is my understanding is that the education skill bonus from the ed table does not apply to skills in a hardware skill program skills.

Or
None of the above.
The Hardware: Mechanical would use his "Building Super Vehicles" skill.

[Fermat]

Sorry, slightly bad example. so I will change it to Locksmith instead.
A. Base (25) + HW (20) + PhD (30) = 75
B. Base (25) + HW (20) = 45
C. Base (25) + PhD (30) = 55

But the original example brings a second question. If build super-vehicle covers Automotive Mechanics, Aircraft Mechanics, and Weapon Engineering, why get even have those skills? It would be like having the Cooking skill, but second skill for boiling water.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To repeat myself...B...
Why...because the HW skills were not learned from their formal education that the ed roll represents.

[say652]

And I support that a high iq would apply bonuses because of natural intelligence and ability.

A genius would apply his iq bonus to any skill.

[Nightmask]

Sorry, slightly bad example. so I will change it to Locksmith instead.
A. Base (25) + HW (20) + PhD (30) = 75
B. Base (25) + HW (20) = 45
C. Base (25) + PhD (30) = 55

But the original example brings a second question. If build super-vehicle covers Automotive Mechanics, Aircraft Mechanics, and Weapon Engineering, why get even have those skills? It would be like having the Cooking skill, but second skill for boiling water.

He has the base skills because he requires them as the foundation of his special Build Super-Vehicles skill, just like a medical doctor's Medical Doctor skill requires a variety of sub-skills to be learned first. For example, someone with Mechanical Engineering can still repair a car but that specialized knowledge from Automotive Mechanics makes it much easier, or how it would be much harder to build/repair that aircraft with just mechanical engineering rather than also having Aircraft Mechanics.

[Fermat]

He has the base skills because he requires them as the foundation of his special Build Super-Vehicles skill, just like a medical doctor's Medical Doctor skill requires a variety of sub-skills to be learned first. For example, someone with Mechanical Engineering can still repair a car but that specialized knowledge from Automotive Mechanics makes it much easier, or how it would be much harder to build/repair that aircraft with just mechanical engineering rather than also having Aircraft Mechanics.

I understand that thematically, but I am more referring to the mechanics of the game. Why have it on the character sheet if it will never come into play? Is it there for level 12 when it passes Build Supervehicle? It seems sloppy.

The Medical Doctor skill is a poor example, since Biology, Chemistry, Pathology, and Math: Advanced all have instances that will be rolled outside of doctoring.

[eliakon]

Because if you want to analyze a tank gun (as opposed to building one) you might be asked to roll against weapons engineer. Just like you might need to roll against the underlying skills for doing something that is not 'building a super vehicle' but still mechanical in nature.

[Fermat]

Sorry, if I was not clear (and rereading my initial post I wasn't). I understand the clear writing of the rules (hence why I labeled option 2 as RulesAsWritten). I personally thought that Hardware characters being outclassed by someone with a lucky education roll diminished their unique role. If the HW: Electronics genius is inferior to the experiment with a PhD in electronics, it seems off. I know a lot of us reject the super sleuth for the same reason. Also, I personally like when my players get their skills over 98% because it encourages them to push their characters to do extreme actions/creations and let's them really show what a tech genius can really pull off. I don't like that this doesn't really come into play often until very high levels, since other characters get to have their special abilities largely in place so much earlier. It would be like saying the wizard can understand magic (almost as well as the professor at the local college) and will get to cast spells as soon as they reach level 8 or so. I like my players coming up with contraptions and devices, but they won't really stretch themselves if it has almost no chance of success. I thought some of you might have had similar issues and come up with similar ideas, but I'm always looking for improvements. No harm no foul.

[eliakon]

Sorry, if I was not clear (and rereading my initial post I wasn't). I understand the clear writing of the rules (hence why I labeled option 2 as RulesAsWritten). I personally thought that Hardware characters being outclassed by someone with a lucky education roll diminished their unique role. If the HW: Electronics genius is inferior to the experiment with a PhD in electronics, it seems off. I know a lot of us reject the super sleuth for the same reason. Also, I personally like when my players get their skills over 98% because it encourages them to push their characters to do extreme actions/creations and let's them really show what a tech genius can really pull off. I don't like that this doesn't really come into play often until very high levels, since other characters get to have their special abilities largely in place so much earlier. It would be like saying the wizard can understand magic (almost as well as the professor at the local college) and will get to cast spells as soon as they reach level 8 or so. I like my players coming up with contraptions and devices, but they won't really stretch themselves if it has almost no chance of success. I thought some of you might have had similar issues and come up with similar ideas, but I'm always looking for improvements. No harm no foul.

One solution I have had is that I am very generous with Hardware characters inventing and building stuff. Normal PhD guy might, on paper, be better sure....but when he wants to build a suit of power armor he has to have a full scale factory level workshop, he is going to need a team of assistants and a complete supply chain for all his parts.....just like a 'real world' design team would. Mr. Hardware though is seat of his pants brilliant, quirky, and designs and builds a suit of power armor in a cave in Afghanistan using a blacksmiths forge and salvaged weapons components........

[Razorwing]

To be honest... the penalties applied to Hardware characters to build the various gadgets they make are universal. Anyone attempting such a build would also suffer such penalties... but have to make do with the lesser skills that a Hardware character doesn't.

For example:

We have a 1st level Mechanical Hardware character with an IQ of 24 and a non-Hardware character with a PhD in Mechanics (Mechanical Program x2, getting Aircraft and Automotive Mechanics, Robot Mechanics and Weapon Engineer)... also with an IQ of 24. Both seek to build a super vehicle.

The Mechanical Genius start off with a Build Super Vehicle skill of 94% (84% base, +10% for IQ) while the character with only a PhD will have a Mechanical Engineering skill of 65% (25% base, +30% scholastic bonus, +10% for IQ) and the same for Aircraft and Automotive Mechanics, Weapons Engineer. Robot Mechanics is a mere 40% (30% base, +30% scholastic bonus, +10% for IQ and -40% for not being a Hardware character). Yes... that -40% is actually in the book... only a Hardware character doesn't suffer this penalty.

So already at level 1 the Hardware Character has a distinct advantage (approximately +30%) over the character with a mere PhD in building super vehicles... and that is before applying penalties to the roll.

Now, you're probably saying... what about at higher levels when the skills the PhD character has are equal to or better than the Hardware character's skill? Well... the truth is... that just isn't going to happen. The PhD character's skills are limited to a maximum of 98%... which, with the above example, will be reached at level 7 (level 9 without the IQ bonus). The Hardware character's skill however isn't so limited. At level 7, the above hardware character will have a Build Super Vehicle skill of 106% (96% without the IQ bonus)... and at level 15, it will be at 122% (112% if he didn't have the high IQ)... while even at level 15, the PhD character is still limited to a maximum of 98%.

The reason for the higher skill for the Hardware character is to offset the various penalties applied to building things... penalties that are applied to anyone trying to build such things regardless of what kind of skill they might be using. It could be Build Super Vehicles, Mechanical Engineer, Automotive Mechanics or what not... the penalties are universal. So the PhD character with a 98% skill in a given skill still suffers the -50% to work on an alien device... leaving him only a 48% chance of success. Meanwhile, the Hardware Character with Build Super Vehicle skill at 122% will have a 72% chance of success working on the same device. It should also be noted that even if the penalties applied to a skill over 100% fail to bring it below 98%, the Hardware character will still fail the roll if he rolls 99 or 100 (the higher percentage is only to offset penalties... 98% is still the maximum success rate for any given roll).

So... there is a clear difference between an actual Hardware character and a character with a PhD who builds things. Simply put... both may be able to do the same things... but the Hardware character will always be able to do it better.

[Fermat]

Yes, I understand that the penalties are universal (and IQ bonuses). Likewise, I understand the benefit of going above 98% (its what I really like about Hardware characters) although I will admit I would prefer to see it trend higher to encourage players to really try to build outrageous things, but that's preference.

But the 'build super vehicles' and 'recognize vehicle quality' used for everything comes off as clunky to me. Mostly because they get Mechanics: Automotive and Aircraft, which they will never use. One option is just to leave them off the sheet since they won't be used. One option I've been playing with is a variant on the Cut above the Rest. The genius doesn't get Mech: Auto or Aircraft (or any other ones from other sourcebooks/creations), but they still get Mech: basic and Mech: Engineer (those have non-vehicle uses.) However, they can choose one speciality, which gives them +20% in that particular field (Automotive, Cycle, Aircraft, Marine, Helicopter, etc.) They can choose later specialities at every third level. That way, they still get to be awesome, it encourages them to create and cleans up the sheet a bit.

Naturally, this would apply to Electronics geniuses as well. Does that sound logical/effective to anyone else?

If this works, I may try it on some of the fan creations like Medical Geniuses and Chemical Geniuses.