why does no one play super hero games anymore?

VR Dragon · Unread post by **VR Dragon** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:23 am

Mainly, from my experience no one seems to want to play a real super hero styled and themed game these days.

No one seems to do the secret identity thing anymore.
No one seems interested in saving the day, protecting people, and truth justice stuff. Instead its all dark anti hero stuff.

Any attempt to do a super hero game seems to turn into a cartoon lampoon of super heroic stuff. It ends up being more The Tick and less Batman, Superman, X-men, Fantastic Four, Spiderman and so many other more serious super hero ways of running it. Sure there will be some silliness but not to the point is turns cartoony.

Daniel Stoker · Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:25 pm

Don't look at me, I still love the Super Hero genre and play in games when I can, sadly it's getting people together these days.

Daniel Stoker

drewkitty ~..~ · Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:41 pm

Five letters starting with r and ending with s, and goes moo.

There is also not a great number of Superhero movies/shows out in the past decade. There have been more post-a & shows movies the SupH movies driving the imaginations of the teens.

Reagren Wright · Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:28 pm

My problem with my favorite Palladium game is it becomes stagnant easily. I mean in PF your questing, gathering magical
artifacts, trying to solve something, you character actually changes and evolves. In Nightbane, Splicers, Robotech, you're
going up against a great evil, your fighting for a cause, trying to save a people. Things happen to you. And you can evolve.
BtS in its current incarnation, your solving a mystery or stopping some great supernatural threat. And trying not to die.
Dead Reign, is just like the t.v. show, trying not to die and live in a zombie world. But like HU, the character you start off with
is the same character. Nothing really happens to your character that changes. I mean you have the same super powers only
the damage and range get longer. You have to keep coming up with different scenarios to put them in that makes the players
keep wanting to play the same old character they started with at 1st level. Which is why we tap out at 4th or 5th usually.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:16 pm

Our group has attempted the genuine Superhero game before. Personally, I prefer to do it using the TSR Marvel Superheroes thanks to it's flexibility and variability. And that it's a system purpose-built to handle super powers. We have tried doing it in HU. Sadly, we have one player/GM who 'didn't read those kinds of comics growing up." Instead he read all the Wierd War, Sgt. Rock style of comics. Unfortunately, he also loves Heroes Unlimited (not sure why, really), and attempts to get super powers in Rifts every time. (I have refused, and refused, and refused. I have stopped short of shouting, but that's only a matter of time)

Sadly, one of the reasons that Marvel's MC2 line lost traction was because the current big seller is Dark & Gritty. MC2 tried a return to the Silver Age, and it did quite poorly, which is sad because I adored the concept. It seems like too many people want to play the anti-hero sorts, for whatever reasons that they have. Even our HU adorer wants this, and gets very annoyed when I tell him, "I'm running a hero-style game. Stop whining and suck it up. You have no excuse, considering I gave you the comics to read."

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:48 pm

My group and myself have played two superhero rpgs. Champions and M&M 3E. It just easier to find players for D&D. It's been years since we played HU. It does a decent job as a superhero rpg. Except their are other super rpgs that do it better. As well most gamers at least in my experience prefer four color type of games. Dark or anti-heirs just don't fo it for me.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:42 am

It is interesting that a lot of my group (myself included) gravitate to the more gritty anti-heroes, however our best games have been ones where we were just good solid heroes.

This has been true of both HU and D&D. I suspect it's because good heroes are better at working together than our anti-heroes and mercenaries. I think the problem may be that we sometimes see good heroes as being stupidly good, cartoonishly so, and we push back against that ... and we push back too far. Being principled or being a paladin doesn't turn you into Robocop when he had 100+ directives.

Thom001 · Unread post by **Thom001** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:47 pm

My group only plays gritty anti-hero games when we have superhero campaigns, but then we only have played in rifts so far. It's just doesn't seem to fit too well in rifts games. However, if we ever do play an HU game I would hope everyone in the group agrees to play a true heroes game.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:26 pm

Only thing I'm interested in is playing a real hero, no 'villains with good publicity' like Wolverine and do find it disappointing how many people want to play that kind of thing as it make finding a good game so hard to find.

SpiritInterface · Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:54 pm

Tac gear, Kevlar, Big Guns all beat Hero Powers....

Stone Gargoyle · Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:55 pm

Nobody seems to want the limitations set by playing a good aligned character. There is more flexibility by playing a selfish alignment.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:35 pm

Sadly, it's hard to play a purely idealistic character in a setting that takes reality as a setting into account.
Let's face it; corruption in politics/public service, sports, even the military and the astronaut corps, leads to a degree of cynicism about anybody loudly proclaiming that they're for 'truth, justice, and the (insert nation here) way!". People get suspicious of that.
And even if you're a 100% so-clean-you-squeak patriot/altruist/humanitarian, there's going to be a trip-up; lawmakers wanting to regulate you, corporates trying to patent you, tabloids trying to ferret out your dirty secrets, everybody out to make a buck off you, and then there are those who want to sue you(remember The Incredibles?) just because you're a goody-two-shoes meddling in their lives or showing them up.
Given that kind of strain, who could blame players if they want to start juggling buildings for fun, or play firefighters, government agents, and or soldiers of mundane origin who don't have to worry about all that? Just follow orders and find your courage without having to worry about all that?
Or play the bad boys who aren't bothered conscience-wise by all that?

And even in those other games, it can get pretty cartoony. More often than not, my Robotech games ended up with live grenades or mini-missiles being juggled.

Daniel Stoker · Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:33 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Nobody seems to want the limitations set by playing a good aligned character. There is more flexibility by playing a selfish alignment.

I've had a lot of fun with scrupulous ones myself.

Daniel Stoker

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:47 pm

I had a Principled character once. Basically he was a good guy who did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Granted, he was dirt poor, and had little problem jacking cash off of bad guys, but other than that he was pretty much the alignment. He was a Zero, a person who had no legal identity, a former champion of the fighting pits (before his powers kicked in), stood 8'8", and was an expert in crossing international borders without getting noticed. He had no real vices, he just liked to walk wherever and help people out. He has been known to help a farmer with a broken tractor plow fields, talk to underprivileged kids on how to get ahead with little money, and occasionally go on a murdering spree dealing with unrepentant, purely irredeemable members of humanity. On that last bit, he only went on two sprees to deal with those kinds of individuals.

Our usual HU GM had no idea how to deal with him. Seriously, no clue.

Ranger · Unread post by **Ranger** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:11 am

Because of Video Game Systems and the complete lack of imagination of the current youth when it comes to role playing.

Thom001 · Unread post by **Thom001** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:32 pm

On a side note do you consider batman to be an anti hero? I ask because that is the arch type that at least one person in our group tends to play when we play a heroes campaign. I always have considered him to be an anti-hero.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:46 pm

Thom001 wrote:On a side note do you consider batman to be an anti hero? I ask because that is the arch type that at least one person in our group tends to play when we play a heroes campaign. I always have considered him to be an anti-hero.

Batman pretty much became an anti-hero after Miller's 'Dark Knight Returns'. Before that it was pretty well infected for nearly 20 years by the 1966 Batman series. Miller changed all of that. 'The Dark Knight Returns' was a serious game-changer for DC's view of Batman.

Thom001 · Unread post by **Thom001** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:30 pm

That makes sense. I just always wondered how other people thought of him because he is dark and sometimes scary in his pursuit of right and wrong. However, He doesn't (or didn't last time I read a batman comic, 1999) go as far as say the punisher or wolverine.

Ranger · Unread post by **Ranger** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:01 pm

He is the driven hero who accepts nothing in his life other than his pursuit of his mission.

Thom001 · Unread post by **Thom001** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:29 pm

Ranger wrote:He is the driven hero who accepts nothing in his life other than his pursuit of his mission.

Yes, and I agree with that, but with the methods he chooses to use, does he go too far to still be considered a hero? Or is he more of a less immoral anti-hero than the rest? I tend to think of him as anti-hero, and I've seen others do that same, but I just don't know if batman should be grouped in with other so-called anti-heroes like the punisher, wolverine, spawn, savage dragon, blade, etc.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:55 pm

Batman is currently an Anti-Hero, just one that doesn't kill. He uses fear, intimidation, and the like to get the job done, but he is no more 'moral' than the Punisher. I mean, is it more moral to put a guy in a full body cast than to outright kill him? Pretty much a grey area, really.

But he refers to the Robins as his 'Soldiers' (Miller's influence), truly trusts nobody short of Alfred (Brother Eye and the OMAC units), demands that any hero that comes into 'his city' operate by his rules no matter what, and rarely lets the people he works with in on the fullness of his plans (excellent tactician, but not a team player, really). He's still a hero, just not a mentally balanced one.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:06 am

VR Dragon wrote:why does no one play super hero games anymore?

Well, I really hate to be the only one to tell you this, but here's your answer.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:24 am

wyrmraker wrote:Batman is currently an Anti-Hero, just one that doesn't kill. He uses fear, intimidation, and the like to get the job done, but he is no more 'moral' than the Punisher. I mean, is it more moral to put a guy in a full body cast than to outright kill him? Pretty much a grey area, really.

But he refers to the Robins as his 'Soldiers' (Miller's influence), truly trusts nobody short of Alfred (Brother Eye and the OMAC units), demands that any hero that comes into 'his city' operate by his rules no matter what, and rarely lets the people he works with in on the fullness of his plans (excellent tactician, but not a team player, really). He's still a hero, just not a mentally balanced one.

An understatement that, and I agree that Batman's really no more moral than the Punisher (must be why he assaulted him in the Avengers/JLA crossover, saw too much of himself in him). The man sees Batman as his true identity and Bruce Wayne the fake ID (the opposite of Superman, after he was remade post-Original Crisis to have Clark Kent be who he truly is and Superman the fake).

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:06 am

A telling indicator of Batman's horrible mental state: There was the end of a story arc where Nightwing beat the Joker to death, and Batman managed to CPR the Joker back to the land of the living. Out of all the characters who are unrepentant and deserve death...

Razorwing · Unread post by **Razorwing** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:50 am

Saving the Joker was more to prevent Nightwing from becoming a murderer than anything else. For Batman, while he is taking the law into his own hands, he is not judge, jury or an executioner (well... at least not the last one). That is the line he doesn't cross... one that he has to fight every day not to do so because it would be too easy to give in and become as bad as those he fights.

Batman lives by a very demanding moral code... and while he is willing to use some questionable methods in the pursuit of his mission, there are some lines he will not cross or let those he cares about cross if he can. He is even willing to work within the laws when they work, but won't let a criminal get away with their crimes if those laws fail. A part of him does hope that those he fight will eventually change their ways (even the Joker), but he will be there to stop them if they don't.

I remember one story where a gang of teenagers pull off a small time robbery and are making their getaway when they notice the Batman is "apparently" after them (he's actually after another, more dangerous criminal, but he does take notice of them and makes a note to investigate afterwards). They hold up in an abandoned building where their fear of the Batman proves to be a far more effective tool... for every creak and flicker in the shadows they see as him coming to get them. They become so nervous and afraid that by the end of the night, they decide to turn themselves in (ironically that is when the Batman is finally able to return and deal with them... only to learn that his "reputation" has already done his job for him).

In many ways, the Batman is just as idealistic as Superman... but where Superman tries to be the shining example everyone looks up to, the Batman chooses to be the boogey-man that scares people into behaving (though he is willing to do more than just scare if he needs to... but he won't kill if he has a choice).

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:54 am

Razorwing wrote:Saving the Joker was more to prevent Nightwing from becoming a murderer than anything else. For Batman, while he is taking the law into his own hands, he is not judge, jury or an executioner (well... at least not the last one). That is the line he doesn't cross... one that he has to fight every day not to do so because it would be too easy to give in and become as bad as those he fights.

Killing the Joker doesn't make you as bad as the Joker.

Saving the Joker makes you as bad as the Joker.

Thom001 · Unread post by **Thom001** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:47 pm

Regularguy wrote:
Razorwing wrote:Saving the Joker was more to prevent Nightwing from becoming a murderer than anything else. For Batman, while he is taking the law into his own hands, he is not judge, jury or an executioner (well... at least not the last one). That is the line he doesn't cross... one that he has to fight every day not to do so because it would be too easy to give in and become as bad as those he fights.

Killing the Joker doesn't make you as bad as the Joker.

Saving the Joker makes you as bad as the Joker.

Saving the joker shows you have a very high, quite irrational, and almost insane value of human life. However, no, it does not make you as bad as the joker.

Ranger · Unread post by **Ranger** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:24 pm

Thom001 wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
Razorwing wrote:Saving the Joker was more to prevent Nightwing from becoming a murderer than anything else. For Batman, while he is taking the law into his own hands, he is not judge, jury or an executioner (well... at least not the last one). That is the line he doesn't cross... one that he has to fight every day not to do so because it would be too easy to give in and become as bad as those he fights.

Killing the Joker doesn't make you as bad as the Joker.

Saving the Joker makes you as bad as the Joker.

Saving the joker shows you have a very high, quite irrational, and almost insane value of human life. However, no, it does not make you as bad as the joker.

It makes you responsible for EVERY person the Joker kills afterwards. Some people are so far gone that they only deserve death.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:15 pm

Hell even the villains if written the way they are supposed to would be killing off the Joker. His actions are bad for business. Once he paralsyzed Barbara Gordon the text of the villuan community not to mention some more practical villuan a would have killed him off. It's bad for business and anything that attracts attention from the heroes is not a good thing IMO. The Joker is protected by a powerful artifact like the CS in Rifts. All will be forgiven because of fan popularity.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:24 pm

Sureshot wrote:Hell even the villains if written the way they are supposed to would be killing off the Joker. His actions are bad for business. Once he paralsyzed Barbara Gordon the text of the villuan community not to mention some more practical villuan a would have killed him off. It's bad for business and anything that attracts attention from the heroes is not a good thing IMO. The Joker is protected by a powerful artifact like the CS in Rifts. All will be forgiven because of fan popularity.

A friend of mine was running a Marvel/DC crossover game. I was playing a former Gotham henchman who had decided to get into heroing. I told the GM that if the Joker ever showed up at my character's place, he would have a pistol emptied into his chest, and that would slow him down long enough for my character to get the shotgun out from behind the door and decapitate him with buckshot. And then my character would call a particular detective, and the Joker would vanish forever. And then I told the GM that the Joker would be very well aware of this.

The Joker is crazy, and only rarely suicidal. And even then, only if Batman is involved.

SpiritInterface · Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:30 am

Mostly because the Palladium system is geared towards lethal force and "Super Heroes" aren't supposed to KILL, especially good aligned ones.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:55 pm

SpiritInterface wrote:Mostly because the Palladium system is geared towards lethal force and "Super Heroes" aren't supposed to KILL, especially good aligned ones.

That is a very good point. I am not aware of a good KO method in the Palladium system short of Boxing and a Natural 20.

Daniel Stoker · Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:27 pm

It's a lot easier with certain powers but yeah, Palladium does make it harder to subdue an enemy.

Daniel Stoker

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:52 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:It's a lot easier with certain powers but yeah, Palladium does make it harder to subdue an enemy.

Daniel Stoker

You can even say they lampshade it in one of their examples, where a player decided to knock out a security guard except he couldn't clear the 16-20 to knock him out and just kept HITTING the guy, requiring the other players in character restraining him because he was beating the guy to death trying to just knock him out.

Daniel Stoker · Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:52 pm

Yeah, that was always something that bugged me when I read the original book.

Daniel Stoker

Boethermsbrukan · Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:17 pm

Although a local meetup site has given me more options as to finding an active, ongoing gaming group than I could hope to do otherwise locally, I rarely see superhero games coming up for a given session (they're divided up that way on both the site and email notifications). Funny thing: a couple of weeks ago, there was a Heroes Unlimited 2nd Ed. series of sessions starting up for novice players (almost went to it) in a X-Men-like 'humans and mutant freaks' setting, starting up. I may look into that more than I've yet to.

Besides that, I don't think I've found _any_ ongoing campaigns (usually at a comic store) that involved any game other than Pathfinder, D&D 3.5/4 or TSR's campaign worlds. I have no memory of ever seeing any ongoing campaigns here set in a Palladium RPG setting. The only times I've played in a gaming session populated by the few good friends I have who also were into role-playing games ended up being AD&D 1st or 3.5, nothing else. I suspect there are other independant groups with their own campaigns, but sadly there's not much in the way of a networking system here for finding/seeking groups.

A lot of stores that carried a fair bit of gaming material have mostly or completely phased out their RPG stock and, if previously hosting sessions, those sessions have also met their end. The last in-store extended-length gaming session I recall being part of was at a comic/gaming shop I frequented back when I collected comics regularly (it's not really on my way anywhere; I'd be going to there to go specifically there by transit) and it was for the D&D 30th Anniversary business a shop could host a number of Novembers ago. I honestly don't remember the year right now. Still had a good time, but it of course was D&D and not Palladium. The only RPG-dedicated store here I know of that survived for quite some time shut down because of falling business more than a decade ago (the Worldhouse, which was known well enough that I suspect some of our membership will flash on the name) and I can't think of any gaming-specific stores (no CCGs or comics) that exist here now, although there are three stores here under the same banner who do carry and support quite a bit of gaming merchandise now.

-Boe.

Tor · Unread post by **Tor** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:20 pm

Ranger wrote:It makes you responsible for EVERY person the Joker kills afterwards. Some people are so far gone that they only deserve death.

It doesn't work that way, Joker is the one responsible for those deaths because he is the one doing them. To claim responsibility for his acts ignores Joker's agency and treats him like some tiger let out of a zoo. He's too intelligent to do that to him.

Sureshot wrote:Once he paralsyzed Barbara Gordon the text of the villuan community not to mention some more practical villuan a would have killed him off. It's bad for business and anything that attracts attention from the heroes is not a good thing IMO.

I'm not following your logic here. Joker's actions draw attention AWAY from normal criminals. Joker would only be a liability if he was part of a given syndicate and was drawing eyes to the rest of them. Joker is only a liability to his own flunkies and partners, and that is generally why you only have insane/wuss/stupid types who stick around him.

wyrmraker wrote:I told the GM that if the Joker ever showed up at my character's place, he would have a pistol emptied into his chest

and that is why prior to showing himself, Joker will already have emptied your pistol or doused you with laughing gas. Joker's prep skills are on par with Batman's or Riddler's, look at some of his schemes.

wyrmraker wrote:I am not aware of a good KO method in the Palladium system short of Boxing and a Natural 20.

Much like there are some automatic criticals from behind, some also have automatic 'stuns' from behind.

Stun and KO are effectively synonymous, they both take you out for d6 melees or so. Sometimes the phrase "Knockout/Stun" is even used.

Nightmask wrote:You can even say they lampshade it in one of their examples, where a player decided to knock out a security guard except he couldn't clear the 16-20 to knock him out and just kept HITTING the guy, requiring the other players in character restraining him because he was beating the guy to death trying to just knock him out.

There may be multiple examples, but I remember the one with the Juicer in Rifts Conversion Book, pages 12 to 13 where 'The Knockout' has a section in 'Where Damage is Inflicted'.

In that example he needed a 19 or 20 to knock the guy out, which is odd, since Boxing would only allow it on a 20. This section is sort of weird in that it kinda implies ANYONE can knock out on a 20 (no mention of it being boxer-specific), which would make listing it as a boxing ability pointless, so I just ignore it.

Not only would a 19 suffice, but in Kev's play test he even allowed bonuses to apply to that, which is pretty generous, a modified 19 would allow a heck of a lot more knockouts than nat 20s only.

The problem with that example though, is that it overlooked the ability to Pull Punch. Using that, someone can attempt to lower the damage from their punches (to even just 1 point) which would allow you to make many knock-out attempts without necessarily hurting the person.

One great way to knock people out would be to have a character who knows Chao Ta (Mystic China pages 175-7) and selects Greased Lightning as their first kata and Boxing as a physical skill.
*The halved damage helps protect whoever you're trying to knock out from dying (and you can pull-punch on top of that, although the art doesn't give any bonuses to it, so you might have some trouble).
*The strike penalty is also an asset here: strike penalties do not offset the auto-success of natural 20s, and if anything, it just helps guarantee that non-knockout punches will miss, protecting your opponent
*Attacks getting doubled means twice as many chances to roll a 20 and succeed in a knockout
*if you figure it works like Thai Boxing's 'lightning kata' (the wording is different so you may not) delivering them all in the first attack would make it pretty likely you'll get to knock them out before they can use their attacks against you
*by 12th level when the Body-Hardening skills you can select expand to include Demon-Hunter, if you select Demon-Wrestling it'll be maxed out in letting you do a pin/incapacitate 25% of the time (although some GMs might opt to choose that like new skills, Martial Art Powers begin at 1 when selected at later levels)

fbdaury · Unread post by **fbdaury** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:04 am

No one in my area to game with, that I am aware of anyways...

fbdaury · Unread post by **fbdaury** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:11 am

Ranger wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
Saving the joker shows you have a very high, quite irrational, and almost insane value of human life. However, no, it does not make you as bad as the joker.

It makes you responsible for EVERY person the Joker kills afterwards. Some people are so far gone that they only deserve death.

That's not true at all- every person makes their own decisions. If the justice system in the DCU does not see fit to execute the Joker for all his crimes then who is Batman to make that call? Either all society is to blame or Joker alone holds the blame for his crimes.

fbdaury · Unread post by **fbdaury** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:17 am

The KO/Stun rules in Palladium games are such that a 19-20 from a Martial Art or HtH skill must be declared and then rolled- the difference with the Boxing Auto KO is that you need not declare your intention to knock someone out before rolling the die and if you get the N20 then you can decide if you want to knock them out or not.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:58 am

fbdaury wrote:
Ranger wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
Saving the joker shows you have a very high, quite irrational, and almost insane value of human life. However, no, it does not make you as bad as the joker.

It makes you responsible for EVERY person the Joker kills afterwards. Some people are so far gone that they only deserve death.

That's not true at all- every person makes their own decisions. If the justice system in the DCU does not see fit to execute the Joker for all his crimes then who is Batman to make that call? Either all society is to blame or Joker alone holds the blame for his crimes.

That often ends up a problem, trying to blame the hero for the ill deeds of the villains as if somehow they're supposedly responsible for the villain's actions instead of the villain but pointedly ignoring just how often that villain was handed over to the legal authorities who don't kill them and who'd quickly be hunting the hero if he did because that's murder and there is no 'well if he really deserves it heroes are supposed to execute criminals that the government fails to' law OR moral requirement.

Then again I've seen at least one person who felt a 'real' hero completely tosses away his moral code 'for the greater good' and when someone like the Joker comes around not only is he supposed to promptly kill him but then TURN HIMSELF IN FOR IT. Think about how ridiculous that is, not only are you supposed to kill anyone you think the authorities should have but didn't but you're also supposed to turn yourself in and face life imprisonment or the death penalty for the killing which means you aren't going to be there for anyone else who needs saving because you through that freedom away to kill one criminal.

Nekira Sudacne · Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:01 am

Daniel Stoker wrote:It's a lot easier with certain powers but yeah, Palladium does make it harder to subdue an enemy.

Daniel Stoker

Really? It's so trivial to incapacitate people in palladium my long running game group jokes actually make it a gag how we wind up never using lethal force dispite not TRYING to play four colored heroes or the good guys--it's just always much easier to incapacitate someone than try to drain all of their SDC/HP. not only is it easier, it's often much faster.

Magic net, carpet of adhesion, your choice of dozens of incapacitating powers like force bands, resin, gravity manipulation, sticky globes, bio-manipulation: Paralasis and many, many others. even amoung those powers that need a save, usually you just do the same action 2-4 times until they roll low on their saving throw and then you win, compared with trading blows for a dozen turns trying to delepte usually high SDC totals. even amoung powers that don't necessarly incapacitate the opponenet, inflicting -8 or -10 to strike/parry/dodge is always enough to make the rest of the fight trivial and make it easy to subdue them.

Daniel Stoker · Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:35 pm

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Really? It's so trivial to incapacitate people in palladium my long running game group jokes actually make it a gag how we wind up never using lethal force dispite not TRYING to play four colored heroes or the good guys--it's just always much easier to incapacitate someone than try to drain all of their SDC/HP. not only is it easier, it's often much faster.

Magic net, carpet of adhesion, your choice of dozens of incapacitating powers like force bands, resin, gravity manipulation, sticky globes, bio-manipulation: Paralasis and many, many others. even amoung those powers that need a save, usually you just do the same action 2-4 times until they roll low on their saving throw and then you win, compared with trading blows for a dozen turns trying to delepte usually high SDC totals. even amoung powers that don't necessarly incapacitate the opponenet, inflicting -8 or -10 to strike/parry/dodge is always enough to make the rest of the fight trivial and make it easy to subdue them.

Yes really. There are certain power sets that make it so you can like APS Ice or if you’re wealthy enough to get something like the strap gun from Aliens Unlimited, etc, but the bruiser with APS: Metal? While in a comic I might bend a light pole around a villain I capture Palladium doesn’t have rules for that, nor can I beat on a stronger opponent and knock him out without a lot of luck. I don't think they should make it easy, but you shouldn't have to rely on a few specific powers to be able to subdue an opponent. I mean it’s ‘stupid’ but we’re drawing from sources where not only do characters knock people out with ‘ease’ even in epic fights and not kill the opponent but you have people like the human torch making fire cages (though not sure if he’s done that recently or not) to hold people.

Plus spamming something the Bio-Manipulation sounds nice but at 10 ISP per use with a regen rate of just 6 isp per hour of meditation? 4 uses will use up around a 3rd of a first level psychics ISP and need 6 2/3 hours of mediation to recover from for just one person.

Daniel Stoker

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:03 pm

Nightmask wrote:I've seen at least one person who felt a 'real' hero completely tosses away his moral code 'for the greater good' and when someone like the Joker comes around not only is he supposed to promptly kill him but then TURN HIMSELF IN FOR IT. Think about how ridiculous that is, not only are you supposed to kill anyone you think the authorities should have but didn't but you're also supposed to turn yourself in and face life imprisonment or the death penalty for the killing which means you aren't going to be there for anyone else who needs saving because you through that freedom away to kill one criminal.

Hey, if I were on that guy's jury, I wouldn't vote to lock him up for life or sentence him to death; I'd vote to give him a medal. And while I'm fine with him TURNING HIMSELF IN FOR IT, it'd be just as fine by me if he, y'know, didn't. After all, what's heroic is killing the Joker; whether the hero then turns himself in, that's a matter of taste.

Besides, the whole point of having to kill the Joker is that the justice system in question (a) refuses to, and instead (b) keeps placing him in easily-escapable situations like unto being on one side or the other of a revolving door. So either they sensibly give the hero a pass after he turns himself in, or else he -- remains alive and well and standing right next to the revolving door whenever there's work to be done.

(Hey, what are they going to do? Stop someone? That's just crazy talk.)

BillionSix · Unread post by **BillionSix** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:46 pm

I think that is one of the more unrealistic aspects of comics, but one that we can't really get rid of. In the real world, insanity pleas are rarely used, at least not successfully. The Joker would be tried, convicted and probably put to death, or at least put in a real prison with guards that keep him from getting out.
Then we'd have no more Joker stories to entertain us. So the writers have to keep him out there committing crimes.
If the real world actually operated like that, like Grand Theft Auto where you can shoot a hundred people, steal cars and crash them into school, then literally walk out of the police station an hour later with no consequences, then vigilantism would become necessary.
So the Joker becomes absurd after a few decades. He has to keep escaping over and over again, because the fans like reading about the Joker. Killing him only makes sense, but takes you out of the story. It draws attention to the absurdity of the comic book universe. So we have to accept that Batman will keep capturing the Joker while maintaining his moral code, while knowing he will escape so we can have another cool Joker story.

Nekira Sudacne · Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:00 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Really? It's so trivial to incapacitate people in palladium my long running game group jokes actually make it a gag how we wind up never using lethal force dispite not TRYING to play four colored heroes or the good guys--it's just always much easier to incapacitate someone than try to drain all of their SDC/HP. not only is it easier, it's often much faster.

Magic net, carpet of adhesion, your choice of dozens of incapacitating powers like force bands, resin, gravity manipulation, sticky globes, bio-manipulation: Paralasis and many, many others. even amoung those powers that need a save, usually you just do the same action 2-4 times until they roll low on their saving throw and then you win, compared with trading blows for a dozen turns trying to delepte usually high SDC totals. even amoung powers that don't necessarly incapacitate the opponenet, inflicting -8 or -10 to strike/parry/dodge is always enough to make the rest of the fight trivial and make it easy to subdue them.

Yes really. There are certain power sets that make it so you can like APS Ice or if you’re wealthy enough to get something like the strap gun from Aliens Unlimited, etc, but the bruiser with APS: Metal? While in a comic I might bend a light pole around a villain I capture Palladium doesn’t have rules for that, nor can I beat on a stronger opponent and knock him out without a lot of luck. I don't think they should make it easy, but you shouldn't have to rely on a few specific powers to be able to subdue an opponent. I mean it’s ‘stupid’ but we’re drawing from sources where not only do characters knock people out with ‘ease’ even in epic fights and not kill the opponent but you have people like the human torch making fire cages (though not sure if he’s done that recently or not) to hold people.

Plus spamming something the Bio-Manipulation sounds nice but at 10 ISP per use with a regen rate of just 6 isp per hour of meditation? 4 uses will use up around a 3rd of a first level psychics ISP and need 6 2/3 hours of mediation to recover from for just one person.

Daniel Stoker

palladium dosn't have rules for handcuffing people either: that dosn't mean your APS: Metal guy cannot. or that he can't wrap a telephone pole around them instead either.

Daniel Stoker · Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:05 pm

Nekira Sudacne wrote:palladium dosn't have rules for handcuffing people either: that dosn't mean your APS: Metal guy cannot. or that he can't wrap a telephone pole around them instead either.

And he gets the person in a position to handcuff how exactly? (And assuming he has handcuffs that work on someone with powers etc.) You said it was trivial, and if you pick the right powers yes but for others with different sets it’s a lot less so and it doesn’t help that most if not all damage is set to kill not stun (**shakes his fist at Scotty**) and there is a lack of rules for incapacitating people easily. Something as simple as a 'feat' you could take to allow you to train to use APS Electricity and shock to knock out would be one way of doing it for certain power sets to broaden the ability for people to capture villains.

Daniel Stoker

Nekira Sudacne · Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:16 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:palladium dosn't have rules for handcuffing people either: that dosn't mean your APS: Metal guy cannot. or that he can't wrap a telephone pole around them instead either.

And he gets the person in a position to handcuff how exactly? (And assuming he has handcuffs that work on someone with powers etc.) You said it was trivial, and if you pick the right powers yes but for others with different sets it’s a lot less so and it doesn’t help that most if not all damage is set to kill not stun (**shakes his fist at Scotty**) and there is a lack of rules for incapacitating people easily. Something as simple as a 'feat' you could take to allow you to train to use APS Electricity and shock to knock out would be one way of doing it for certain power sets to broaden the ability for people to capture villains.

Daniel Stoker

How do police handcuff people in real life (assuming they will work on the villian in question) if they don't surrender? you put them in a hold while another PC handcuffs them. there are hold manuvers in HU2, and they are very easy to pull off, you just need a regular strike roll. if regular handcuffs don't work, then use a telephone pole or whatever else you can get. if you don't have anything that works, then go and get some in the game. I'm not really seeing the problem here. "I didn't take any powers except ones to beat people up". Okay. so go and get some gear suited to capturing people if you want to. The problem isn't that the game lacks ways to capture people, the problem is you didn't pick them to start. which means you need to put in some effort to get ways to do that--I don't see what the problem is with that. If regular handcuffs won't work, tell the GM your hero starts looking into how the goverment restrains super beings, and start trying to get some of that. Also, this is a setting that has native spellcasters, so getting talismens with capture spells is not impossible either, if tricky.

The problem you seem to have, and correct me if i'm wrong, seems to be along the line of "I took bruser powers like APS Metal and lightning reflexes and I don't have any built in way to capture people". Well, then go get some gear to capture people--there are ways in the book if you bother to go look.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:19 pm

Is getting villains to surrender really so hard?

--flatline

Daniel Stoker · Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:30 pm

Nekira Sudacne wrote:How do police handcuff people in real life (assuming they will work on the villian in question) if they don't surrender? you put them in a hold while another PC handcuffs them. there are hold manuvers in HU2, and they are very easy to pull off, you just need a regular strike roll. if regular handcuffs don't work, then use a telephone pole or whatever else you can get. if you don't have anything that works, then go and get some in the game. I'm not really seeing the problem here. "I didn't take any powers except ones to beat people up". Okay. so go and get some gear suited to capturing people if you want to. The problem isn't that the game lacks ways to capture people, the problem is you didn't pick them to start. which means you need to put in some effort to get ways to do that--I don't see what the problem is with that. If regular handcuffs won't work, tell the GM your hero starts looking into how the goverment restrains super beings, and start trying to get some of that. Also, this is a setting that has native spellcasters, so getting talismens with capture spells is not impossible either, if tricky.

The problem you seem to have, and correct me if i'm wrong, seems to be along the line of "I took bruser powers like APS Metal and lightning reflexes and I don't have any built in way to capture people". Well, then go get some gear to capture people--there are ways in the book if you bother to go look.

I’ll have to relook up the hold rules because I don’t remember them being all that common or easy to engage in (Need Wrestling at level one or HtH Martial arts at level 3 and it rolls off of PP, I can see that being ugly with bonuses half the characters seem to have). And you don’t always get to pick your powers (As some people do go by random rolls) and everyone shouldn’t be forced to pick ‘force bonds’ or one of the few powers like that to be able to disable a villain. Nor is everyone going to have the money for gear like that Nek or be Spideman and be able to cobble up webshooters to do it on their own or be able to find it. SCRET might have super strong handcuffs or a foam gun like in Phase World but that doesn’t mean your character can or should be able to find it easily. If you’re in your groups version of the Avengers? Sure. But especially the smaller types of groups or starting characters? I’d hope they can’t just go through the book and pick anything. And while I’d love to see more magic getting a caster who knows Talisman and will sell you one with capture spells? (Or even give you) is going to be something that’s a heck of a lot rarer.

Daniel Stoker