Way of the Lance

[Baron mugwort]

I will keep this short. Way of the lance is a cool skill. However it does not give any extra bonus to strike through the levels. So I have been using the extra strike bonuses from 1st edition is this a good plan?

[Library Ogre]

Sounds reasonable. I usually use WP Spear, but that works.

[Guest]

I recommend the bonuses from W.P. Lance in Splicers myself, or, as a secondary alternative, the ones from W.P. Lance in Mutants In Avalon.

[Northern Ranger]

I agree with Nexx. Been using spear to represent a striking bonus for the lance for years. The two seem pretty similar in their use.

[RockJock]

I had totally forgotten about the Splicers skill. I hadn't thought to apply it to PF.

[Probitas]

Interestingly enough my friends an I had just noticed that ourselves when I tried using the Lance in combat, and noticed no bonuses. We all assume it's a mistake that has been left out, because the 1st Ed had stat increases per level, so we decided to use the 1st Ed Lance skill. I may try to compare similar 1st,2nd Ed W.P. trees to create a more proper one, but I also think it might be nice if Kevin S. would post an official Fantasy version specifically for the Palladium FRPG. We don't do Rifters so won't use stats from those books, mainly because I can't wrap my head around science/magic existing simultaneously or developing concurrently, and we all agree that keeping to one set of world data is easier to juggle, without adding in guns/and other high technology systems.

[Probitas]

The FAQ says no bonuses at all, so at low levels not much of an issue, but once climbing up to 8 or so, the lance is going to be getting parried an awful lot from non-knights using sword and board who DO get leveling bonuses with W.P. PLUS H2H adds and any other bonuses from the O.C.C..

[Probitas]

12th level paladin, no stat bonuses, mounted with lance
Strike Parry Dodge Damage Roll Pull Disarm Paladin H2H
2 10 5 4 3 3 2
No skills that increase stats taken. And no enhanced weaponry/armor.

12th level Merc, no stat bonuses, on foot, sword and board
Strike Parry Dodge Damage Roll Pull Disarm Assassin (evil) H2H
9 12 3 4 3 3 4
No skills that increase stats taken. And no enhanced weaponry/armor.

Assuming equal armor used. Full Plate, AR 17. All rolls stop at 20.

So for the Paladin to hit and damage the Merc, he must roll 16 or higher. The Merc however only needs a 9. Also, the paladin needs to roll a 10 or higher to parry any attack that will damage or hit armor excepting a natural 20 or a 2 to parry the minimum attack that just hits armor. The Merc however only need roll 8 or higher to parry all attacks except a natural 20, and a 2 to also parry the minimum that hits just armor.

As you can see 16 vs. 9 attack is out of whack, plus the 10 vs. 8 parry is a bit out too. Even if you increase both to 15th level, the Paladin gains only 1 for shield parry, nothing for H2H, and squat again for OCC. The Merc however gains a total of 3 to strike and 2 to parry. So adding those in makes it still the same numbers to attack for the Paladin, and only 9 to parry all attacks that hit him or armor except nat 20, but the Merc gets 6 to hit and damage except a nat 20 parry, and only 6 to parry anything but a nat 20 attack.

Not having WP lance bonuses to strike/parry make upper level Paladins gimp vs. similar men at arms, and by no means the epitome of combat they are claimed to be when mounted and using the Lance. I understand I can add certain skills to the Paladin that will increase strike and parry bonuses, but those same skills can also be taken by the Merc, so effectively cancel each other out. Even if you allow strike rolls to increase beyond 20, the parry rolls also increase too, and the Merc has a further range than the Paladin. So unless you can roll a stat set that gives more bonuses that the other guy, or snag some better weapons/armor, you are doomed.

[bradshaw]

12th level paladin, no stat bonuses, mounted with lance
Strike Parry Dodge Damage Roll Pull Disarm Paladin H2H
2 10 5 4 3 3 2
No skills that increase stats taken. And no enhanced weaponry/armor.

12th level Merc, no stat bonuses, on foot, sword and board
Strike Parry Dodge Damage Roll Pull Disarm Assassin (evil) H2H
9 12 3 4 3 3 4
No skills that increase stats taken. And no enhanced weaponry/armor.

Assuming equal armor used. Full Plate, AR 17. All rolls stop at 20.

So for the Paladin to hit and damage the Merc, he must roll 16 or higher. The Merc however only needs a 9. Also, the paladin needs to roll a 10 or higher to parry any attack that will damage or hit armor excepting a natural 20 or a 2 to parry the minimum attack that just hits armor. The Merc however only need roll 8 or higher to parry all attacks except a natural 20, and a 2 to also parry the minimum that hits just armor.

As you can see 16 vs. 9 attack is out of whack, plus the 10 vs. 8 parry is a bit out too. Even if you increase both to 15th level, the Paladin gains only 1 for shield parry, nothing for H2H, and squat again for OCC. The Merc however gains a total of 3 to strike and 2 to parry. So adding those in makes it still the same numbers to attack for the Paladin, and only 9 to parry all attacks that hit him or armor except nat 20, but the Merc gets 6 to hit and damage except a nat 20 parry, and only 6 to parry anything but a nat 20 attack.

Not having WP lance bonuses to strike/parry make upper level Paladins gimp vs. similar men at arms, and by no means the epitome of combat they are claimed to be when mounted and using the Lance. I understand I can add certain skills to the Paladin that will increase strike and parry bonuses, but those same skills can also be taken by the Merc, so effectively cancel each other out. Even if you allow strike rolls to increase beyond 20, the parry rolls also increase too, and the Merc has a further range than the Paladin. So unless you can roll a stat set that gives more bonuses that the other guy, or snag some better weapons/armor, you are doomed.

DOOMED!

[Probitas]

I suppose the Paladin could switch to sword and board too, but what's the point of the lance skill then? It should be viable throughout the OCC, and should get better as the level increases like all the other WPs. House rules could fix this, but I occasionally like to see 'official' responses. Maybe I'm being a bit fussy, but it would be nice to know why the WP lance skill was weakened so dramatically in 2nd edition. Were players complaining the Knights and Paladins were too uber? What was the rationale involved in the decision making progress? I honestly would like to know, maybe there is something I missed that actually makes sense if pointed out. As it stands, it makes little sense to claim that the knight or paladin is 'skilled in the use of the lance as a weapon in combat and for tournaments' if the only increases in ability come from the H2H skill and horsemanship skill, which both get better as you level, while lance remains static.

[Veknironth]

Well, I bring up this issue of how easy it is to parry in the game all the time. Not just lances, but different weapon vs weapon examples. I agree, though, that the rules do not allow for the length of a lance or the speed of a mounted horsemen within the combat system. All of the advantages a lance has are essentially removed in the combat system as it's more set up for hand to hand duels. Of course, nothing is perfect. The only suggestion I have is along the lines of what you recommend. Just make a house rule based on common sense - you can't parry a lance charge, rules be damned.

-Vek
"Charles Shultz could parry a Walter Lantz."

[Probitas]

I agree with you Tyciol, but only for part of what you post. While it IS true that the 2nd Edition Paladin can learn the H2H Assassin profiency, it's only if the Paladin is EVIL, which precludes the more normal GOOD Paladin. And as I have already shown, the two H2H when compared directly without any other modifiers allows for a more powerful Assassin skill set, which makes no sense when dealing with trained mounted cavalry/infantry. Assassins are supposed to be, well, assassins, striking from cover, sneaking around and strking from the shadows, using poison, and avoiding direct confrontations. The maximum bonus to strike for a Paladin using the Paladin H2H, is only +2, which is weak sauce when compared to the Assassin H2H of +6, or even the Basic H2H, which nets a similar +2 max, and even the Expert is no better at +2 max. Does someone at PB have a hard on for the Assassin class? Really, shouldn't the Paladin be better at striking than a Basic H2H, or even Expert H2H? Is there an errata page somewhere that has corrected bonus listings for the H2H skills that I can't find?

Yes, lances should be MORE difficult to parry due to the small size of the initial target (the tip) and the speed of movement, but since all that is required is to make contact with any swing that directs the tip away from the target (I assume even a swing/duck under qualifies as a parry), as long as this occurs before contact, it does make sense that a person with good hand/eye coordination and reflexes should be able to parry a lance under optimum conditions. (Overcast skies and raining at night are not optimum). This doesn't negate the possibility of being over-ridden however, which is a good fallback for any horseman, or just using the lance as a pommel strike, since the lance is used one-handed. So that you either hit with the lance tip, or brain the guy as you correct the lance position for the next pass attempt.

I am just having a lot of trouble understanding why the lance was so set aside, as it were.

[Probitas]

Going with your WP listing NR, it just makes sense to give them the ability to get better with it. Otherwise the first time that poor 15th level Paladin tries to skewer the evil dragon will be his last.

[Jerell]

I'm with Vek on this one. No parrys for a lance charge.

A kinght or pally doing a full out charge with a lance seems like it could not be parried to me. The speed and weight behind the lance is going to be vast to say the least. The only thing I could see taking care of the lance before it hits is maybe a twohanded sword, but that would take cracker-jack 'natural tweenty' timing, and you'd still be over run by the war horse. The force of the horse and rider focused on the point of the lance should be able to pierce any shield and armor, so to me the best thing would seem to dodge to avoid being killed, or at a minimum severely skewered.

Lately I've been having lance charges also count AR as halved and it's working well for me.

[JuliusCreed]

Wow... went looking for info on this subject and end up doing a little thread ressurection. Of coursde it's only to drop my .02 on the subject, so I'll be brief.
While I agree that the power of the lance seems sorely lacking in terms of numbers, I think parrying a Lance is entirely possible, but only under one particular circumstance; the person getting charged needs an appropriate shield to parry with.
I'd say any medium to large metal shield, or maybe a heavilly reinforced wooden one or the same size would do. Due to the speed of a charging attack, I'd allow half the WP parry bonus rounded up for any out of the blue charge attack, (knight charging out from a flank position or just suddenly barreling through a melee) and full bonuses for a charge the defender has a few seconds to prep for. (sees a charge coming from across the battlefield, like during a classic jousting match) Anyone successfully parrying a charging lance essentially deflects the blow using the lance as a form of angled cover, but the force of the strike still stands a good chance of knocking the target on its arse. For mounted targets, use the Way of the Lance rules for unseating. For opponents on foot or even kneeling, assign a reasonable percentage chance. Personally I go with about 65-80% for standing targets, 45-60% for kneeling (a bit more stability here)
Of course there is also the ever present chance of the force of a charging lance strike ramming right through a shield and hurting the squishy little warriorbehind it anyway. The chance for this is higher for a wooden shield compared to a metal one. I leave the specifics of that little snag to all you nit-picky detail artists out there.
Okay, so that's more like my .25 rather than .02, but at least I'm done now. I hereby return this thread to the grave I found it in.