Mounted combat question...

[ShadowHawk]

does Palladium have rules for mounted combat, if so what book(s) are they in? I am looking for anything for lance, spear, pikes, etc damage modification. also for that matter, any other weaponry. logically, the momentum of the mount would transfer more kinetic energy to said weapon giving it more impact...blah, blah, blah.

[Prysus]

does Palladium have rules for mounted combat, if so what book(s) are they in? I am looking for anything for lance, spear, pikes, etc damage modification. also for that matter, any other weaponry. logically, the momentum of the mount would transfer more kinetic energy to said weapon giving it more impact...blah, blah, blah.

Greetings and Salutations. If you're just looking for damage modification, have you looked at the Horsemanship skills (main book) yet? They provide damage mods as part of the skill. For specific Lance notes, see the Knight and Palladin O.C.C. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Hotrod]

Those rules still leave some questions, such as:

Can riders use paired weapons or 2-handers while riding?
Do kick attacks from the horse use up an attack by the user, as well, or are they "free attacks"?
What are the mechanics for getting knocked down and/or trampled by a stampede/charge?
What happens after a charge attack? Does the horse just stop on a dime in melee range, or does it continue charging (and how do you handle subsequent action in a melee round if the horse and rider just blow by an opponent?)

[Prysus]

[justify]Greetings and Salutations. I never said those rules were perfect, but they addressed the specific inquiries originally asked.

Some of those questions I'd say can be answered by Monsters & Animals, where damage (but no other mechanics) for a stampede (as well as their unlikeliness of doing so) are listed, as well as the horse's attacks per melee.

Others will need to be answered with common sense. As far as I know you usually need to hold onto the reigns with at least one hand (handless riding is possible, but not something I think you want to do in combat), so one handed weapons only (a lance is considered a one-handed weapon in PF2 main book). Also horses cannot stop on a dime in real life, so no reason to think they can in real life. I'd figure an action (maybe two) to slow, turn, and start a new charge. Of course, unless the opponent has a ranged attack, the opponent can't take MUCH advantage.

I'm not an expert on equines, but what little I do know and mixed with what already exists, that's what I'd say. There's also an article in Rifter 19 that addresses Aerial Mounts, but doesn't address most of those questions any better amd focuses on flying mounts. Hopefully some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys again.[/justify]

[say652]

Archery rate of fire is half. All shots wild.
Modern weapons all shots wild.

I give +1D6 Melee weapons and using the house to attack comes off the riders action.

[pblackcrow]

Others will need to be answered with common sense. As far as I know you usually need to hold onto the reigns with at least one hand (handless riding is possible, but not something I think you want to do in combat), so one handed weapons only (a lance is considered a one-handed weapon in PF2 main book).

It all depends on how the horse is trained, actually. I have heard of some, like the Mongolian mounted archers' horses, who were trained to react to the riders weight and were manipulated with the stirrups.

[ShadowHawk]

thanks all.

[say652]

Horses are smart empathic so a bonded rider, same animal for a few weeks etc.
The two could fight in unison but, I would look at the Master Blood Rider from the South America book 2 for more ideas on the mount and Rider fighting in unison.

[Prysus]

Others will need to be answered with common sense. As far as I know you usually need to hold onto the reigns with at least one hand (handless riding is possible, but not something I think you want to do in combat), so one handed weapons only (a lance is considered a one-handed weapon in PF2 main book).

It all depends on how the horse is trained, actually. I have heard of some, like the Mongolian mounted archers' horses, who were trained to react to the riders weight and were manipulated with the stirrups.

Greetings and Salutations. I know, which is why I used the world "usually." Granted, I wasn't thinking of Mongolian horse archers, but still similar concept. However, in my opinion, that wouldn't fall under the general horsemanship skills. That would (to me) be a separate skill (something like Trick Riding from Rifts, though maybe not that skill specifically). Also, archery (I think) would work a bit different than the original question asked which talked about momentum for added damage. To me that implies melee weapons, which is an important distinction as you'll be moving your body differently for leverage, etc. Meanwhile in ranged combat you can control your environment/surroundings a bit easier (in my opinion). While you might be able to use a pole arm in a similar manner to a lance, you wouldn't be able to use it to the weapon's full capabilities. I'll admit to not knowing much about Mongolian horse archers, but were they known to ride into melee combat wielding two-handed swords or using Paired Weapons since they were riding without hands? I'm thinking not, but I could be wrong. Anyways, I wasn't ignoring such cases, but I view that as the exception and not the rule. Just my opinion. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Note: For notes on using archery from horseback, see the Long Bowman O.C.C. That lists the penalties for doing so without proper skills/training (i.e. anyone except for Long Bowman). This, of course, implies that Long Bowman CAN fire from horseback without problem (thereby not requiring hands on the horse while doing so). Whether or not this is at full gallop, reduced pace, or other is left unstated. But this is still ranged vs. melee (see above).

[Tor]

I have nothing against 2H or paired on mount but I think there should be some penalty to the horsemanship skill if you aren't using reigns.

Come to think of it, having 2 hands on the reigns would be even more stable, so freeing a hand to swing even a 1-handed sword should have some kind of penalty.

Or alternatively, maybe give a +5% bonus to horsemanship skill per 1 hand on the reigns? Maybe also for foot in stirrup, if you're trying to do weirdness like kick a guy from horseback?

[Veknironth]

Well, there aren't many rules in the PFRPG for mounted combat. IT actually sort of makes the use of a horse a pain, because you have to worry about it being stolen, and you have to feed it, etc. and it doesn't really give you a lot of benefits rules wise. Of course, rules wise, you don't actually have to feed a horse. Regardless, I think paired weapons on a horse is a no go. First, the horse is in the way. Second, you can't really brace yourself very well to attack someone. Third, weapons that are useful from horseback have to be pretty long and don't lend themselves much to being used one handed.

For the horse attack, I'd give the PC one horse attack per melee in addition to the PC's Hand to hand attacks. That is, of course, unless the horse is charging. For the shooting of a bow from horseback, I know Prysus said he wasn't familiar with the Mongolians, but he did write a Rifter article about bows and archery, if his signature is to be believed. I'd give him a chance to come up with something, if you don't like what is currently offered.

On a side note, I would allow lances to have the +6 damage that polearms receive for being superior quality.

-Vek
"I have no Rifter articles."

[ShadowHawk]

Veknironth, you have a good point about paired weapons on a horse. but, we aren't just talking about horses combat, or ground mounted vs other ground mounted or vs ground combat...we are talking pegasi, griffins, and ground mounted vs harpies and other flying thing. whereby the attacker could and use 2 weapons. also is the shield not also considered a weapon?

I want to see a faerie swatter [rune tennis racket] in the game.

[Veknironth]

Well, I think it would be even more dangerous to use paired weapons on a flying mount. It's one thing to stay on the mount while gravity is pulling you straight down, but when you bank and turn, it's dragging you everywhere. That doesn't even factor in the centripetal force that would pull you out of the saddle on said banks and turns. You'd need to be strapped in. Using paired weapons against something flying above you might work but that's so physically awkward that I'd assign some major penalties for it.

-Vek
"Seriously, sit on a chair and try to stab upwards with two pencils. It's not easy."

[kiralon]

Well, I think it would be even more dangerous to use paired weapons on a flying mount. It's one thing to stay on the mount while gravity is pulling you straight down, but when you bank and turn, it's dragging you everywhere. That doesn't even factor in the centripetal force that would pull you out of the saddle on said banks and turns. You'd need to be strapped in. Using paired weapons against something flying above you might work but that's so physically awkward that I'd assign some major penalties for it.

-Vek
"Seriously, sit on a chair and try to stab upwards with two pencils. It's not easy."

Then add to the fact that the wings come out of the shoulders and you are flying up and down rather then going straight, and the fact that the weapon you are using needs to be able to reach past wings of your mount without interfering with them, while being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings, and as vek pointed out using a saddle that holds you in place so you don't fall out whilst flying, then fighting from the back of a flying mount is pretty ridiculous if you aren't using a crossbow or a spear.

[ronekiln]

I am a very poor rider and even I guide the horse more by leaning and leg pressure than by the reigns. Anyone actually trained in riding and on a horse that was trained for fighting would have little use for reigns in combat. Most shields were historically used as weapons in addition to protection. The metal rim on small and medium shields can do horrific damage when smashed into someone. So to a certain extent, using paired weapons on horseback isn't an issue. You may not be able to use both weapons on the same opponent depending on positioning.

Many war horses were taught to fight on their own. Rider and horse worked as a team and to a large extent the horse attacked on its own without impeding the rider.

Many cultures used horse archers extensively. They could shoot just as fast and accurately as standing on the ground. Sometimes even while hanging off the side of the horse and shooting under its neck. The Apache were particularly famous for this. You could require extra skill slots be spent on that capability.

In the end, game balance must trump history and reality to some extent.

[glitterboy2098]

one thing i dislike about PFRPG's mounted combat is how badly it shafts Archery. according to WP archery, you get no bonuses and half rate of fire when mounted. which seems fair given the typical trope of archers as "stand and deliver" ighters.

but there are plenty of examples in history of mounted archery that was both fast and accurate (the Parthians of Iran 247 BC – 224 AD, the Persian Cataphracts 700bc to 300 AD*, the Mongols 800bc to 1300's ad, the Japanese Samurai 600 ad to 1800's ad..)

so clearly fast accurate mounted archery should be possible. which IMO means there really should be a skill you can take to overturn/reduce the WP archery limits on mounted/moving archery.




*i'm not going to bring up the Roman adoption iof Cataphracts for the late empire periods, mainly because Roman mounted archery wasn't as good as the persians, and as a result the romans used their cataphracts/heavy cav with a more hand to hand focus)

[ShadowHawk]

Being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings? I have to question that.

[ShadowLogan]

Do kick attacks from the horse use up an attack by the user, as well, or are they "free attacks"?

If the mount acts/reacts to something on its own to attack then no, the rider does not lose an attack. though I could see them at penalty due to the sudden movement of the mount (based on piloting manuevers in other lines).

If the rider signals to the mount to attack, then yes the rider does use an attack and then the mount would to (provided they have enough actions)

so clearly fast accurate mounted archery should be possible. which IMO means there really should be a skill you can take to overturn/reduce the WP archery limits on mounted/moving archery.

Under the Long Bowman OCC (PF2E pg83) their "Superior Bowmanship" ability allows "using a long bow without penatly from horseback, a moving vehicle or an awkward position". So while it is generally true WP: Archery has that restriction, it is possible for specific classes to exist that have rules that supercede the general rules in the WP.

One could also consider Importing the Trick Shoot/Sharpshooting skill(s) from other lines (Rifts/HU2E0) to be available w/n reason? Option #3 for Trick Shooting specifically is a watered down version of Superior Bowmanship ability you are looking for.

[glitterboy2098]

Longbowmen are foot archers though. so it makes no sense for them to have advantages on horseback. especially with a 6+ foot longbow..

the Knight class though should have access to such. also the Paladin, and perhaps the mercenary. those clases that are actually expected to fight on horseback.

[ShadowLogan]

I do not dispute that the classes are set up as they are. But the regularly archery skill (WP: Archery) is not as demanding as the Long Bowman (and Rifts Samurai) advanced archery skill.

Nothing stops the Knight/Paladin from taking WP: Archery and using it from a mounted position w/o penalties provided they aren't moving or off-balance. Which makes sense as they are not specialists with the bow by default.

There are GM options though, like importing skills, creating a custom class with the necessary focus(es) and balanced, spending skill slots to be cross trained, etc.

[kiralon]

Being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings? I have to question that.

with the wings coming out of the shoulders you are sitting behind the wings, rather than in front,
Have a look at what wings do in slow motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... wdYOA#t=15

[Tor]

I think a longbowman could still manage to shoot a longbow off a stationary horse better than a knight, but once the horse is in motion all bets are off.

[Veknironth]

Well, sure a longbowman could shoot a longbow off a stationary horse better than a knight, but that is only a lesser degree of failing. A longbow is really large and is very difficult to fire. You need a considerable amount of strength and you need to really brace yourself to fire it. It's just too big and unwieldy to shoot while riding a horse. There's a reason why horsemen used much smaller, weaker, and more compact bows. Unless you're standing on the horse, and it's perfectly still or you have extraordinary balance, and your feet are somehow strapped in with a wide enough stance, you're not shooting a longbow from horseback.

-Vek
"Maybe from the back of a dead horse."

[Tor]

Why would you need to stand? Even if seated wouldn't your shoulders be further from the ground than if you were standing on ground?

[glitterboy2098]

Why would you need to stand? Even if seated wouldn't your shoulders be further from the ground than if you were standing on ground?

because if your seated, in order to draw back a long bow properly you'd have to cut grooves into the horse for the bowstring.
there is a reason that mounted archery tended to use shortbows, and seek for ways to amplify their power (recursive, composite, etc. though i have to say the Japanese samurai's assymetrical Yumi bows were probably the most elegant solution, though not the most effective)

[Veknironth]

Well, that's part of it. The other part is how difficult it is to pull the string if you're sitting. Even if your legs are locked in somehow (which doesn't sound safe), being in a sitting position makes it really hard to perform the draw.

-Vek
"Try it at home!"

[Library Ogre]

Well, that's part of it. The other part is how difficult it is to pull the string if you're sitting. Even if your legs are locked in somehow (which doesn't sound safe), being in a sitting position makes it really hard to perform the draw.

Which is, as I understand it, part of the reason for differing draws; the longbow tends to use a cheek-draw, while horse bows tend towards a chest draw.

[URLeader Hobbes]

Those rules still leave some questions, such as:

Can riders use paired weapons or 2-handers while riding?
Do kick attacks from the horse use up an attack by the user, as well, or are they "free attacks"?
What are the mechanics for getting knocked down and/or trampled by a stampede/charge?
What happens after a charge attack? Does the horse just stop on a dime in melee range, or does it continue charging (and how do you handle subsequent action in a melee round if the horse and rider just blow by an opponent?)

I would guess at the following:
Can riders use paired weapons or 2-handers while riding?

Yes. It's called Lance & Shield it's how jousting is done. Although they may need to have a hand on the reigns or some other way of controlling the mount. IE voice commands, psychic connection, magic, etc.

Do kick attacks from the horse use up an attack by the user, as well, or are they "free attacks"?

They are not free attacks. The rider has to command the horse to do so. If the horse does it on it's own then the rider needs to try not to be thrown off as it was an unexpected move by the mount. Trample attacks however do not eat up an attack. So say you are charging and can make your attack at a foe with whatever weapon you are wielding. Another foe in the line of attack will need to get the hell outta the horses way or risk being trampled.

Yes you can hit someone with a lance, knock them down and then they may end up getting trampled by the horse after.

What are the mechanics for getting knocked down and/or trampled by a stampede/charge?

Without the books handy I can only give a good guess. So here goes.

First it's situational. Is the victim on foot or on a horse? If on foot then they take the hit then there is the initial damage from the lance. Assuming the target is human sized this WILL knock them off their feet. They can still attempt to roll out of the way of being trampled but they are at a -5 to dodge as they are prone.

The target number they have to beat on the dodge is the attackers initial roll to strike with the lance. (Natural not modified)

NOTE: The Victim can also attempt to roll with punch/fall to try to minimalize the damage.

If they are mounted then they have to make a roll against their skill to prevent from being knocked off the mount first. If that occurs then they take 1d6 points from the fall and the GM should determine where they land. (It may not be in the direct line of the charging foe and thus they might be safe from further trample damage.)

What happens after a charge attack?

Generally one guy is laughing while the other guy is trying to pick himself up off the ground.

Does the horse just stop on a dime in melee range, or does it continue charging (and how do you handle subsequent action in a melee round if the horse and rider just blow by an opponent?

Horses don't just stop on a dime. They try to keep going. Watch equestrian jumping sometime. Sometimes a horse will decide it's not gonna make a jump and it starts slowing up a few strides before it has to leap. Usually this comes as a surprise to the rider who may or may not be thrown.

Generally horses are trained to not just stop. They will keep going and the horse and rider will usually circle around for another pass. So a player will make a horsemanship skill roll to circle around if they are mounted.

If they are unlucky enough to be under attack from a mounted foe then they got an action to think of something to do. This again becomes really situational

Again keep in mind this is all without the book and just off the cuff. Officially the rules might also include being stunned and/or loss of actions and initiative.

[URLeader Hobbes]

When it comes to flying mounts I tend to default to the notion that any saddle would have been designed to enable the rider maximum capacity while keeping them safe/strapped in.

Essentially I kinda default to the old Dragonlance rules Provided the weapons and situation in question permits a shot it's permissible. Flying can actually be smoother than riding. While the archer may have to deal with different aspects of wind a creature in a "glide" will permit a clear shot for a mounted archer.

Also if you do have a trained beast then the training may have included aerial maneuvers to permit fighting. Similar to how a warhorse is trained to work in a calvary. So depending on the type of beast a proper training might include an equivalent of a modern version of "dogfighting" known by fighter pilots.

[ShadowHawk]

Being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings? I have to question that.

with the wings coming out of the shoulders you are sitting behind the wings, rather than in front,
Have a look at what wings do in slow motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... wdYOA#t=15

During take off yes, not in flight.

[kiralon]

Being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings? I have to question that.

with the wings coming out of the shoulders you are sitting behind the wings, rather than in front,
Have a look at what wings do in slow motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... wdYOA#t=15

During take off yes, not in flight.

Birds do actually flap their wings when flying, they don't just glide, so whenever you want them to gain altitude or go faster their wings will get in the way, but really, the wingspans of the creatures people want to ride isn't big enough to get their weight into the sky so they must fly magically anyway, their wings are there for looks.

[Hotrod]

Hobbes, I mostly agree with your hand-waving description of what should (and likely did) happen in mounted combat. I'm less confident with your use of jousting as a paired weapons example, because a shield isn't generally considered as a paired weapon in the rules as written unless you're using it for simultaneous actions. A true paired weapons model would allow any one-handed weapon in the off hand, and would allow jousting with a lance in each hand, or a lance in one hand and a sword in another. That interpretation seems wrong to me. Horse archery is one thing when the horsey is standing still or running on its own. Using a halberd, a claymore (unless you're taking a half-blade grip and using it like a spear), or a pair of lances seems like it should be implausibly awkward.

Like I said, though, I mostly agree with the rest of your interpretation. However, the rules as written do not support any of those interpretations. A charge attack is simply modeled as an attack that uses up 2 attacks, after which combat competes as normal. There's no range considerations in the rules as written, no horse-running-by considerations, and no trampling rules or damage. None of the rules state whether or not horse attacks use up a rider's attack.

These seem like they should be fairly common events in mounted combat.

[ShadowHawk]

Being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings? I have to question that.

with the wings coming out of the shoulders you are sitting behind the wings, rather than in front,
Have a look at what wings do in slow motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... wdYOA#t=15

During take off yes, not in flight.

Birds do actually flap their wings when flying, they don't just glide, so whenever you want them to gain altitude or go faster their wings will get in the way, but really, the wingspans of the creatures people want to ride isn't big enough to get their weight into the sky so they must fly magically anyway, their wings are there for looks.

flap, yes. bring the wings to where they are touching each other. no. Not unless they want to gain serious altitude.

[say652]

The Cossacks occ in Warlords of Russia has specialized mounted combat abilities and trick shooting.

So for a mounted archer with crazy bonuses that would bee the winner.
Also the gain bonuses for sword fighting while mounted.

[kiralon]

Being smacked in the face by your own mounts wings? I have to question that.

with the wings coming out of the shoulders you are sitting behind the wings, rather than in front,
Have a look at what wings do in slow motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... wdYOA#t=15

During take off yes, not in flight.

Birds do actually flap their wings when flying, they don't just glide, so whenever you want them to gain altitude or go faster their wings will get in the way, but really, the wingspans of the creatures people want to ride isn't big enough to get their weight into the sky so they must fly magically anyway, their wings are there for looks.

flap, yes. bring the wings to where they are touching each other. no. Not unless they want to gain serious altitude.

It wouldn't be for just gaining altitude, it would also be when you are doing evasive manoeuvres, not to mention how far forward you would be leaning to try and make a lower profile from the wind.

[URLeader Hobbes]

Hobbes, I mostly agree with your hand-waving description of what should (and likely did) happen in mounted combat. I'm less confident with your use of jousting as a paired weapons example, because a shield isn't generally considered as a paired weapon in the rules as written unless you're using it for simultaneous actions. A true paired weapons model would allow any one-handed weapon in the off hand, and would allow jousting with a lance in each hand, or a lance in one hand and a sword in another. That interpretation seems wrong to me. Horse archery is one thing when the horsey is standing still or running on its own. Using a halberd, a claymore (unless you're taking a half-blade grip and using it like a spear), or a pair of lances seems like it should be implausibly awkward.

Like I said, though, I mostly agree with the rest of your interpretation. However, the rules as written do not support any of those interpretations. A charge attack is simply modeled as an attack that uses up 2 attacks, after which combat competes as normal. There's no range considerations in the rules as written, no horse-running-by considerations, and no trampling rules or damage. None of the rules state whether or not horse attacks use up a rider's attack.

These seem like they should be fairly common events in mounted combat.

When I wrote that I was envisioning a joust at a tourney not on a battle field. Just read the section that was being referred.

But I think the paired weapons is still applicable. Again it's another wonderful PFRPG grey area... Here is why I think paired weapons is applicable in this scenario. First a joust of two mounted knights passing one another is essentially a simultaneous hit. No attempt at dodging is made, but they do try to deflect the opponents strike with a shield. This kind of implies using paired weapons. One action to strike with the lance and the other to defend with the shield.

I never considered the idea of one rider using two lances. Not sure how that would in regards to being balanced on the mount. I think the large issue would be the inability to control your mount with two lances.. Given a highly trained mount might be able to work with a rider to accomplish this but it is certainly unconventional to say the least. Normally a rider can grasp the reins with his had that has the shield. Using two lances means he is not holding the reigns. So there would have to be some pretty decent penalties to the riding skill for that.. If a player is dumb enough to grasp the reigns with his/her teeth then by all means they are inviting foes to take head shots at them.

For other one handed weapons paired weapons should work normally from horseback.

Again this is one of those areas that the PFRPG isn't clear on. So best off just to apply whatever common sense and house rule it as best as possible.

[kiralon]

The jousters had to let go of the reins before impact otherwise they could really hurt their horses
This is from the rules of Full Metal Jousting
A 5-point penalty is assessed for any of the following infractions:
Failing to release the horse's reins before impact. This rule is intended to protect the horse from the wrenching impact of two jousters colliding. Two such infractions during one joust will result in the jouster being disqualified and removed from the competition.

[Alrik Vas]

For archery not being wild on horseback, you could take that as your trick shot in an import of the sharpshooter skill. Would fix a lot of that.

[smkeyes]

For mounted archery in one of my games we added the WP Mounted Archery which was only usable with short bows.

[SittingBull]

A warrior riding a horse and properly skilled can also, to some degree, control the horse by the rider using his knees to steer the horse.

A shield can be used on one arm and that same arm can also be holding the reins.