Biomancy and You.

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SereneTsunami
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Biomancy and You.

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

Hello, I was hoping to get some opinions from more experienced RIFTS minds. Specifically I was hoping to learn more about the limits of Biomancy that the Lemurians practice and how it relates to both Eco-Wizadary and the nature magic described in world book 3, England.

It seems to me that as Lemurian Biomancy is described there is very little that it cannot do that Eco-Wizadary can. Sure the product looks/acts a bit different, but your still getting the same thing, a magical item that can simulate a magical spell or effect. Crafting time and materials are the only difference, not the end result.

Nature magics as described in WB3 England seems to be a far less advanced form of Biomancy. Lemurian Pauu Galtors don't just use plants for magical crafts/effects but actually create them. I don't want to heap more powers onto a Pauu Galtor because they are one of the most versitile mages in the game, but I also don't want to short change them.

I thank you in advance for any thoughts you might share on this topic.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Actually, all three are different schools of magic with a different way of looking at their craft. I will explain.

in Rifts England, Herbologyand Druids focus more on drawing on alchemical/mystical properties of plants, while biomancy focuses more on life itself as a focus of mystic energy, and eco wizardy is a school of enchantment focused on living things.

Confused? I'll explain.

Herbology uses plants to fuel magical effects, it's primarly Alchemical in nature--they take the natural mystic properties found in plants and herbs and various rituals and use them to create potions and wands and the occasional magic item. that's the gist of it. an acorn or mandrake always had mystic properties that lead to it's abilities, it just requires the right knowlege and rituals to bring out. It brings out the magic a plant had all along.

Bio-Wizardy by contrast treats life itself as the focus of magic. it alters the life form to have the properties the bio-wizard wants. from enchanting wood to armor, to giving a wooden sword a magical aura, to making plants grow: the bio-wizard dosn't look at what properties a plant or animal has, but what it could have if you give it a nudge and a boost.

Lastly Eco-wizardy is yet another. it's neither concenered much with what properties the plant or animal had, or what you draw out if you modify it--they look at what magical effects they can instill in it. they start with spells and alter the living things and nonliving things (sinew and hide from dead animals or plants, for example), and use it as a focus for the magic they wanted all along.

So to summarize:
Herbology uses the magic the living thing had all along
Bio-Wizardy improves the living thing to have better and more useful properties
Eco-Wizardy enchants organic material to have the magic they want it to have, in a mostly-arbitrary fashion

These are oversimplifications, yes, and each has cases where spefic life forms are required components for it to work, but they show the MINDSET of each class is actually very different. They have lots of similarties (All three tend to agree on having the highest degree of respect for nature and the enviroment), but the fundamental approach they have to working their magic is very different.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

NS can you give/point out an example of the Eco-wizard enchanting anything living?

From what I remember they are more like necromancers (w/o the stigma because they are making magic items out of common magic spells) in that they enchant dead body parts. Or TW but just using what stuff are available.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:NS can you give/point out an example of the Eco-wizard enchanting anything living?

From what I remember they are more like necromancers (w/o the stigma because they are making magic items out of common magic spells) in that they enchant dead body parts. Or TW but just using what stuff are available.


I said Organic, or prorties that the living thing had. I just said that it focused on using living things for enchantment, in the form of raw organic materials. not that the eco-wizard item was still alive by the time the eco-wizard was finished with them. ;)
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:snip... they start with spells and alter the living things and nonliving things (sinew and hide from dead animals or plants, for example), and use it as a focus for the magic they wanted all along.
…snip
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:snip... they start with spells and alter the living things and nonliving things (sinew and hide from dead animals or plants, for example), and use it as a focus for the magic they wanted all along.
…snip


Does it really matter if you take a tooth or claw from a dead dino or a living one? I don't think so, but the books don't say so saying either way is impossible, so I said "either using living things and nonliving things". That doesn't imply any finished eco-wizard items are alive regardless of the source material used--so what exactly are you trying to say here? if you thought that my saying Eco-wizardy items using parts from living things means eco-wizardy items are living things then no, I wasn't.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Eco-Wizards do not alter living things,…..

……except to making them dead so they can take them apart and use them as components.

----------

Biomancy (forest elves' and Lamurin) and Bio-Wizardry are magics that alter living things.

----------

So the three classes that should be talked about together are NErcomancers, Eco-Wizards, and the Herblist mages in england. Because they all use dead flora or fauna in their magic.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Doesn't Lemurian Biomancy suck at resurrecting people compared to Jungle Elven Biomancy?
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eco-Wizards do not alter living things,…..

……except to making them dead so they can take them apart and use them as components.

----------

Biomancy (forest elves' and Lamurin) and Bio-Wizardry are magics that alter living things.

----------

So the three classes that should be talked about together are NErcomancers, Eco-Wizards, and the Herblist mages in england. Because they all use dead flora or fauna in their magic.


I don't think eco wizardry is much related to necromancy. You can take fangs and claws from living dinos without killing them just for one example, and magically de-clawing something is certainly an "alteration". Also some herbalist stuff uses seeds which are alive.

Of course, you pointing out the difference highlights my point about how they are all different arts with different focuses is right. Just becuse you perfer the necromancer comparison does not make mine wrong. :p
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eco-Wizards do not alter living things,…..

……except to making them dead so they can take them apart and use them as components.

----------

Biomancy (forest elves' and Lamurin) and Bio-Wizardry are magics that alter living things.

----------

So the three classes that should be talked about together are NErcomancers, Eco-Wizards, and the Herblist mages in england. Because they all use dead flora or fauna in their magic.


I don't think eco wizardry is much related to necromancy. You can take fangs and claws from living dinos without killing them just for one example, and magically de-clawing something is certainly an "alteration". Also some herbalist stuff uses seeds which are alive.

Of course, you pointing out the difference highlights my point about how they are all different arts with different focuses is right. Just becuse you perfer the necromancer comparison does not make mine wrong. :p

Eco-Wizards are more like a hybrid of a Techno-Wizard and Necromancy, or even just Techno-Wizard variant with a specific slant as a defining characteristic (materials used).

If you take a fang/claw (or other part) from a living creature, even if it doesn't kill the creature, the part that has just been removed is no longer living in >90% of the time (cases like a star fish allow it to be chopped up and each part is still alive as it can regenerate). So I can see Drew's puzzlement (I share it) here.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

Thanks for the thoughtful answers. I agree with your analysis of the differences in the 3 types of magic. However, I still feel like Biomancy is at least the first among equals if not the most powerful amongst the trio.

A master Pauu-Goltar can actually design and build a plant or animal that can do anything that a Druid can steep from an acorn or a root. He can also make a organic device that can equal(or surpass) the items an Eco-Wizard can create. Even extending the idea to include Millenium Tree items seems to me like a Biomancer could easily convince a M-Tree to fork over a few wands.

I also feel that it needs to be said that a Pauu-Goltar and most Lemurians would look down on both a Druid and an Eco-Wizard. In their eyes i think that the Herbology and Eco-Wizardry are dabbling with the magic of life and sometimes even destroy life to gain magical power. Something a True Lemurian would balk at at best and consider a travesty at worst.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eco-Wizards do not alter living things,…..

……except to making them dead so they can take them apart and use them as components.

----------

Biomancy (forest elves' and Lamurin) and Bio-Wizardry are magics that alter living things.

----------

So the three classes that should be talked about together are NErcomancers, Eco-Wizards, and the Herblist mages in england. Because they all use dead flora or fauna in their magic.


I don't think eco wizardry is much related to necromancy. You can take fangs and claws from living dinos without killing them just for one example, and magically de-clawing something is certainly an "alteration". Also some herbalist stuff uses seeds which are alive.

Of course, you pointing out the difference highlights my point about how they are all different arts with different focuses is right. Just becuse you perfer the necromancer comparison does not make mine wrong. :p

Eco-Wizards are more like a hybrid of a Techno-Wizard and Necromancy, or even just Techno-Wizard variant with a specific slant as a defining characteristic (materials used).

If you take a fang/claw (or other part) from a living creature, even if it doesn't kill the creature, the part that has just been removed is no longer living in >90% of the time (cases like a star fish allow it to be chopped up and each part is still alive as it can regenerate). So I can see Drew's puzzlement (I share it) here.


It's a matter of focus, really. Necromancy relies on dead things to infuse with a kind of sudeo life, or strengthen them, or do things thematically related to dead things.

Eco-Wizardy is more simply focused on using Organic material, as opposed to man made. the fact that most useable organic things are dead by the time you can process them into a club or whatever is not really relevant to the eco-wizards worldview. It's the fact that it WAS alive, and natural, is what their focus is stated to be on. Hence, they are conceptually closer to bio-mancers, even if they tend to kill what they work with.

and I was talking about the underlying philosophy of the classes, not the mechancis. I stated that philosphically, their worldveiw is closer to bio-wizards, even if mechanically it's closer to a necromantic/TW hybrid. This seems like a perfectly plain observation to me: I'm not sure why it's tripping people up. Necromancers use things "that are dead". Eco-Wizards use things "that were once alive". Eco wizards "alter" the "(formerly) living things" to have magic. it effects their worldview, even if they do tend to have a nice collection of leather and claws.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eco-Wizards do not alter living things,…..

……except to making them dead so they can take them apart and use them as components.

----------

Biomancy (forest elves' and Lamurin) and Bio-Wizardry are magics that alter living things.

----------

So the three classes that should be talked about together are Necromancers, Eco-Wizards, and the Herbalist mages in england. Because they all use dead flora or fauna in their magic.


I don't think eco wizardry is much related to necromancy. You can take fangs and claws from living dinos without killing them just for one example, and magically de-clawing something is certainly an "alteration". Also some herbalist stuff uses seeds which are alive.

Of course, you pointing out the difference highlights my point about how they are all different arts with different focuses is right. Just because you prefer the necromancer comparison does not make mine wrong. :p


alteration….that is the core word.

Here I am using it to mean to change the living thing (temp or perm // surface changes or at the germ level) via magic.

Any mage can firebolt a Dino to give it a scar, or chop off a animal's claws with a lightblade. Which yes that is an "alteration" via magic. It is not a Biomancy alteration.
-----------
yes, I agree with the differences of philosophy between the necro and EW you presented NS. And both you and I are correct about the sides of the coin we are talking about, in this particular.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eco-Wizards do not alter living things,…..

……except to making them dead so they can take them apart and use them as components.

----------

Biomancy (forest elves' and Lamurin) and Bio-Wizardry are magics that alter living things.

----------

So the three classes that should be talked about together are Necromancers, Eco-Wizards, and the Herbalist mages in england. Because they all use dead flora or fauna in their magic.


I don't think eco wizardry is much related to necromancy. You can take fangs and claws from living dinos without killing them just for one example, and magically de-clawing something is certainly an "alteration". Also some herbalist stuff uses seeds which are alive.

Of course, you pointing out the difference highlights my point about how they are all different arts with different focuses is right. Just because you prefer the necromancer comparison does not make mine wrong. :p


alteration….that is the core word.

Here I am using it to mean to change the living thing (temp or perm // surface changes or at the germ level) via magic.

Any mage can firebolt a Dino to give it a scar, or chop off a animal's claws with a lightblade. Which yes that is an "alteration" via magic. It is not a Biomancy alteration.
-----------
yes, I agree with the differences of philosophy between the necro and EW you presented NS. And both you and I are correct about the sides of the coin we are talking about, in this particular.


Ah, I see the point. I used alteration to refer to the process of infusing it with magic itself--I.E. the final enchanting process--not the means by which the materials are aquired. Which does make my example of magically removing a claw to enchant as a weapon as a poor example in hindsight, but I think you understood what I really meant, now.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@Nekira Sudacne
It is a bit more complicated than that though. On many levels the Eco-Wizard is really a blend of Necromancy and Techno-Wizardry, with nature type classes thrown in that alter the perception. Even the writeup on the Eco-Wizard OCC mentions: "One could argue this makes them cousins to the Necromancer or Bio-Wizard" (pg64), so the necromantic angle is present in the way they are described, but so is Bio-Wizardry (which Biomancy has more in common with than Necromancy) but the text also draws out differences between Eco and Necro/BW. And at no time in the text (pg64-66) do they mention Bio-mancy (which goes back to WB6, as this is WB26...).

However other nature type magic classes might provide a better angle than Biomancer, without the negative connotation of necromancy as they create magic items from parts of the no longer living. Ex. Native American Shaman Fetish items, Herb Magic items, or Inuit items.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Once again: My point is that they are philosophically unrelated to necromancy, their mindset having more to do with other shaman-type classes. the fact that it is mechanically closer to necromancy is not being dispitued, only the mindsets are different.

think of it this way: Hunters and Assassins both use firearms, stealth, and cunning to kill living things, but you wouldn't say buck the husband and family man hunter who hunts to feed his starving family of 20 has a similar mindset or outlook on life as Guido the lifelong contract killer. The fact that they use similar tools and tactics is not under dispute, only the WAY those things are looked at and used; the mindset and goals are completely different. see what I mean?
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Guido the lifelong contract killer could also have a starving family of 20...
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@Nekira
Yes I get the Philosophy angle, what I am saying is that even at that level/angle the Eco-Wizard is less of a Biomancer and more of a druid or other nature-type class that also reveres nature because their wider philosophies are even more similar than Biomancy.

When discussing the class in the book, they don't even bring up Biomancy, which was introduced 20 WBs before WB26 (where EW is introduced), and Druids where introduced 23 WBs before WB26. They mention Techno-Wizardry, Necromancy, Bio-Wizardry, and Druids in text. Druids in WB3 IINM practice Herb Magic, which is described as being similar to Techno-Wizardry. So really EW are closer to druids than Biomancers, even at a philosophical level in the text since they don't even rate a mention when discussing the class when it appeared. (I don't have all the world books, so a later WB that deals with Biomancy might make the comparison, but AFAIK no such comparison exists).

Now WB6 does make a comparison to TW in relation to Biomancy to (pg63, along with Bio-Wizardry) in that they are similar, but it makes the distinction that "it affects living animals and plants without hurting them." Herb Magic like Druids practice doesn't seem to have that limitation, making it closer to Eco-Wizardry than Biomancy on the philosophical level.

Now if we are talking about a short list, where Biomancy is on it, but other nature types aren't. Yes I can see calling Biomancy closer to EWdry if those other options are not on the table.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by eliakon »

And if you want to throw some more confusion on the issue there are TWO major schools of Biomancy
The Jungle Elves practice a kind of Biomancy where they are in harmony with nature and they live with it as a part of it...
The Lemurians practice a very Splugorthian style one where they twist and reshape nature to live in harmony with them.
Both are technically Biomancy although the goals and philosophies of the two are basically 180 degrees apart from each other.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

You misunderstand, I was just lumping bio-mancers and eco wizards into the larger "natualist shaman" catagory. There is no greater similarity than that, you were reading a bit too much into it :)
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

If you let your mind wander a bit you can easily see how the ability of Biomancy to engineer Bio-Constructs have few limits as described. They do not specifically detail many possibilities, but if they can mix the DNA of a shark and a panther to create a supernatural predator/war mount then the possibilities are at least as endless as Techno-Wizardry. In my mind they can duplicate most of the symbiotes listed in WB#2, and possibly even the parasites(without negative side effects). When you consider that they can engineer plants and animals to not only produce or mimic magical spells and effects but that they can make entirely new life-forms the power becomes staggering.

Now, I don't presume to give players these powers, but I think it should be acknowledged that Biomancy is as at least as powerful a magic as Techno-wizardry, or even Bio-Wizardry.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by RockJock »

I've always seen Herbology as empowering, and using nature for effects. Eco-Wizardry has always struck me as sort of technowizardry, but with more primitive components.

Now I see Biomancy as an entire different magnitude of magic. I see Biomancy as biological/magic technology. If you want a magic toaster, grow a pet that makes toast.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Eco-wizardry is not connected to necromancy. necromancy is concerned with the reanimation of dead things, and ecowizardry does not do that. (at least, no more than a LLW or TW does)

Ecowizardry is basically technowizardry by way of shaman fetishes instead of circuits and devices. the eco-wizard isn't instilling life into those claws, bones, sinews, and whatnot, they're just using them as channels to express a magic spell, much the same way a TW uses wire, gems, and bits of machines.

effectively they are technowizards that specialize in Bamboo technology, with a substantial amount of a Flintstones vibe..
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

SereneTsunami wrote:If you let your mind wander a bit you can easily see how the ability of Biomancy to engineer Bio-Constructs have few limits as described. They do not specifically detail many possibilities, but if they can mix the DNA of a shark and a panther to create a supernatural predator/war mount then the possibilities are at least as endless as Techno-Wizardry. In my mind they can duplicate most of the symbiotes listed in WB#2, and possibly even the parasites(without negative side effects). When you consider that they can engineer plants and animals to not only produce or mimic magical spells and effects but that they can make entirely new life-forms the power becomes staggering.

Now, I don't presume to give players these powers, but I think it should be acknowledged that Biomancy is as at least as powerful a magic as Techno-wizardry, or even Bio-Wizardry.
I don't think anyone was ranking them by power, just theme.
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

Ranking the disciplines in order of acceptability isn't that important. I guess im asking what would polite Lemurian society think of a much vaunted Lemurian Scout bringing home for supper an Eco-wizard without so much as a diploma?!? Will Smith coulld play the part expertly...
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

glitterboy2098 wrote:Eco-wizardry is not connected to necromancy. necromancy is concerned with the reanimation of dead things, and ecowizardry does not do that. (at least, no more than a LLW or TW does)

Ecowizardry is basically technowizardry by way of shaman fetishes instead of circuits and devices. the eco-wizard isn't instilling life into those claws, bones, sinews, and whatnot, they're just using them as channels to express a magic spell, much the same way a TW uses wire, gems, and bits of machines.

effectively they are technowizards that specialize in Bamboo technology, with a substantial amount of a Flintstones vibe..

Actually the text allows for the argument that they could be cousins to necromancy "One could argue this makes them cousins to the necromancer or Bio-Wizard..." (pg64 WB26), though unlike those two they don't involve dark forces (as stated in the text), but they do use body parts which could be viewed as necromantic (how they go about using them and such is different).

I don't think it would be a stretch to create spell/ritual versions of Eco-Wizard items a Necromancer could construct (each as a Ritual/Spell they have to learn) given they can create bone derived items/equipment (Bone of Invisibility, Bone Scepter,Bone Staff, Necklace of [insert different types of skull/bones, Skull with Flaming Eyes, etc).

I do agree they are "primitive techno-wizards", but their approach could be seen as a "white art" form of Necromancy (with the more common being a "dark art").
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

SereneTsunami wrote:Ranking the disciplines in order of acceptability isn't that important. I guess im asking what would polite Lemurian society think of a much vaunted Lemurian Scout bringing home for supper an Eco-wizard without so much as a diploma?!? Will Smith coulld play the part expertly...


Half the topics on this forum are not very important. Sinse when has that stopped us? :lol:

I should also note that Biomancer /= Lemurian. I still think of Bio-Mancers as Jungle Elves as well. They're not as advanced as the Lemurians, but they are the first published, and I ran into them a lot in my games, so I still think of them first.

As for what they'd think of them, I think the vast cultural differences between an ancient, civilized and highly sanitized culture and a barbarian craftsman would be so throughly caught up on social differences that the actual meat and bones of their art would be a secondary concern to most. not like the Eco-Wizard is about to just share his secrets with a bunch of hoity-toity barbarians he just met just because they have some kind of plant magic.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
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Re: Biomancy and You.

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

I never really gave The Elves in WB#6 much thought. The seemed very underdeveloped as a class/race. When I bought and read Lemuria(WB#32) it became clear that Biomancy in the advanced Lemurian form is one of the most expansive types of magic in Rifts. The Elves are refugees from a devastated culture, while the Lemurians have developed their Biomancy for thousands of years.

I Like the idea of the Lemurian nation emerging from their pseudo-exile with an unprepared military. I think that as the Lemurians get a more detailed view of the threats to their beloved Earth they will make the difficult choice to become more militant. The war mounts and Bio-armors described in the Lemuria WB are just the tip of the iceberg. Bio-armors designed to fight vampires or demons come to mind.
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